Can a family farm be more profitable by doing more with the land rather than simply farming more acres? In this episode of The Nature Stack, host Erin Delawalla talks with fifth-generation Illinois farmer Will Glazik of Cow Creek Organics, who also works in organic market development with the Rodale Institute. They explore the economics of organic production, the challenges of transitioning away from conventional inputs, and the partnerships that make integrated crop and livestock systems possible. Will also shares how his family is building a diversified agricultural enterprise, from grain and livestock to spirits, while making room for the next generation.
In this conversation
• Why maximizing crop yields does not always maximize profit
• The financial and management challenges of transitioning to organic
• How specialized farmers can collaborate across shared acreage
• Organic labels, food accessibility and the economics of supply chains
• Farm succession, autonomy and the cost of bringing the next generation home
• Turning farm-grown grain into spirits and creating new career paths for a family business
About the guest
Will Glazik is a fifth-generation farmer in Paxton, Illinois, whose family has farmed organically since 2002. He is associated with Cow Creek Organics, works on organic market development with the Rodale Institute, and has helped build a family spirits and beer enterprise in Paxton, Silver Tree Beer & Spirits.
The Nature Stack | Episode 2 Transcript
Conversation with Will Glazik | Edited for readability
Timestamps follow the supplied rough transcript. Light edits remove repeated words, repair punctuation and correct clear transcription errors. Verify names, brand spelling and numerical claims against the final audio before publication.
[0:00] Who in their right mind would walk into $2,000,000 a year of debt to come home with a $40,000 salary when you could just do any low paying job and get $15.00 an hour and match that?
[0:15] Welcome to the Nature Stack podcast.
[0:17] I'm your host Erin Delawalla, founder of Land Steward Partners.
[0:21] The Nature Stack is about building a future where nature is infrastructure.
[0:25] With this episode I'm speaking with Will Glazik, an organic farmer based in Ford County, Illinois and markets consultant for the Rodale Institute.
[0:32] Will is a third generation farmer at Cow Creek Organics.
[0:35] He also Co founded an organic spirits and beer company called Silver Tree Beer and Spirits in downtown Paxton, IL.
[0:43] He's also a master connector in the regenerative agriculture community.
[0:46] So I'm excited to get him talking about his story and all of the great work he does.
[0:50] So welcome to the podcast, Will.
[0:51] It's great to have you and I'm excited for our conversation.
[0:55] Yeah, me too.
[0:56] Good to see Aaron.
[0:57] And maybe it's helpful just to share kind of how you and I met.
[1:01] We met almost 10 years ago now at the Good Food Expo in Chicago.
[1:09] And I remember you were there with lots of experience in agriculture and food, and I had no experience.
[1:16] And I sat down and started bugging you with questions about farming.
[1:19] So thanks for indulging my questions then and now.
[1:25] No, I always think it's pretty cool how little connections and just sitting down and having a beer with someone can lead to so many bigger things.
[1:34] And it's.
[1:36] Yeah, you came up to me, sat down and started talking, hit it off really well, talking about regenerative farming and organic farming.
[1:45] And then through you, I've met so many other really good friends as well, and it's been a fun journey.
[1:52] Yeah, absolutely.
[1:53] Well, to get started with, you know, a little bit about your farm and your work, why don't you tell us where you grew up?
[1:58] I grew up in Paxton, Illinois.
[2:01] It's two hours South of Chicago or 30 minutes north of Champaign.
[2:05] It's pretty rural community with lots of farms.
[2:11] And I'm the fifth generation farmer down here.
[2:16] And then our family has been certified organic since 2002.
[2:23] So I got that wrong in my intro.
[2:24] 5th generation, not third generation, which is pretty impressive.
[2:29] And your family's always been in the same on the same land?
[2:32] Yes, our family's been on the same land.
[2:34] My mom actually just went to the State Fair a month ago to celebrate our Centennial farm.
[2:40] Wow, that's incredible.
[2:42] So you grew up on the farm?
[2:44] So you've been in agriculture your whole life.
[2:46] What did it feel like as a kid growing up on a farm?
[2:50] I have always been my dad's shadow, so I like the joke.
[2:53] I haven't gotten very far in life.
[2:55] I live in the farmhouse that I grew up in.
[2:57] I went from the upstairs southeast bedroom to the southwest bedroom, so just across the hallway.
[3:04] But I grew up always following my dad around.
[3:08] I'd get off the bus and I'd run out and I'd help feed the cows or help work on equipment.
[3:13] I was driving a tractor at 8 years old.
[3:16] I bought my first cow at 8 years old.
[3:19] I've always been deeply ingrained in agriculture.
[3:24] And so have you ever left the farm?
[3:26] Like when you graduated from high school, did you leave for college?
[3:29] And what brought you back four years at University of Illinois, which is, like I said, 30 minutes away.
[3:36] So I, you know, I lived down there on a campus, but I was always coming home on the weekends to help out with farming operations.
[3:44] I'd bring friends.
[3:46] We built quite a bit of fence.
[3:48] So we redid the entire fence on 400 acres and then with my brother, put in some water lines.
[3:56] I left for a little while to go work for the chemical companies, but still in agriculture, selling fertilizer, conventional seed and, you know, chemicals into traditional, conventional row crop production.
[4:19] Yeah.
[4:19] And that's one of my favorite parts of your story, maybe is how that job influenced your career.
[4:25] Can you talk a little bit about that?
[4:26] It's had, it's had a big curve to it.
[4:29] So I grew up on an organic farm, which was pretty abnormal in the early 2000s.
[4:34] There weren't too many of us.
[4:36] And then I needed, I needed find some work and I studied agronomy at U of I conventional agronomy.
[4:43] So that was all new to me, learning how to farm with chemicals.
[4:48] I went to work selling chemicals and fertilizer and I would be working with these farmers and they're struggling.
[4:55] And this was right at the time the big boom of GMO seeds and, you know, perfectly clean fields and we can solve all of agriculture's problems through genetic modification.
[5:08] It was starting to see some cracks in the wall where we saw a herbicide resistance.
[5:14] We saw insects starting to get resistant to Bt There's a lot of things going on as I graduated college and came into the workforce that I saw solutions in a organic system that were not being implemented in the conventional system.
[5:33] And so I slowly started to offer some of these alternative methods to the conventional farmers.
[5:39] And then a few of them picked it up and then, you know, saw that they could solve these solutions without using the chemistries and then eventually moved into organic.
[5:52] And, you know, through that and maybe growing up on organic farm and then working in the chemical industry, I can speak both languages.
[6:05] So I've been able to help farmers who are interested transition into an organic production system.
[6:11] Yeah.
[6:11] And having that experience of knowing how the chemical like farming supplements are marketed, what they're used for, being able to offer an organic alternative, I would imagine makes you a more trusted source.
[6:27] How did that job end up for you?
[6:29] I got fired twice.
[6:32] That was the part apparently.
[6:33] Apparently if you're not selling chemicals, you don't have a job.
[6:37] Yeah, it's it's funny about that job description, right?
[6:40] You were, you were offering something they couldn't monetize.
[6:42] And I think that's one of the challenges with organic is that it's harder to make the economic case for spreading organic farming because you're not selling a product.
[6:53] You're helping people become more self-sufficient.
[6:56] And so, yeah, that's just not a fit for that type of commercial model.
[7:01] So your parents had committed to organic farming before it was has this market recognition before there was a certification label?
[7:10] Can you talk more about like your parents and maybe your grandfather's operation and how they thought about farming and they why they weren't caught up in this green revolution like the rest of their neighbors were?
[7:22] My family has always been slow to adopt some of the what you call progressive AG practices.
[7:29] And, you know, in row crop production, Grandpa always kept wheat in the rotation.
[7:35] He always had red Clover.
[7:36] He always had cattle.
[7:38] And he would rotate, you know, corn, soybeans, wheat and cattle through the farm.
[7:42] And he'd utilize manure.
[7:44] And he would still cultivate even when there were herbicides that could kill all the weeds.
[7:53] So he was always kind of slow to adopt those progressive practices.
[7:59] He caught a little bit of slack for it from some of the farmers.
[8:03] But ultimately, he was quite profitable.
[8:05] And he was able to purchase land and do very well for himself When mom and dad, when he was there, you know, they bought some land, it was their turn to kind of start taking over.
[8:19] They also wanted to raise cattle and kept wheat.
[8:23] And they didn't like, well, like what we were talking about, they didn't like spending all that money to the, the dealerships just to maximize yield when it wasn't maximizing profit.
[8:39] So they took a better look at the, you know, the underlying profit of an operation, both in economics and in ecosystem services.
[8:50] Like they've always planted trees, they've always kept waterways and with the cattle and the small grains it incorporates the cover crop.
[9:00] So just kind of looking at it from the whole system and it's been really good to our family.
[9:08] The fact that they were financially viable and successful probably helped maybe alleviate some of that pressure to look for alternative solutions because they didn't need them necessarily.
[9:22] Like they were kind of doing something that was working.
[9:25] And so they were able to resist kind of the temptation of higher yields since they already were profitable, which is probably was pretty unique at the time.
[9:35] Do you have a sense of like, why was their farm able to do that, whereas others maybe weren't seeing profitability?
[9:43] And so they were more likely to take up the chemicals or look for solutions that were less organic in nature.
[9:49] I think there's this whole system around high yielding crops and you have this mantra feed the world.
[9:57] And it's really, it's really fun.
[10:00] It's exciting to raise a big bin Buster crop, but that isn't always the most profitable.
[10:08] And so mom and dad, they were able, you know, through organic and with livestock, they were able to farm 400 acres and be profitable, you know, as a primary income with a very small debt load.
[10:25] Whereas, you know, a conventional farmer might carry 500 to $1000 an acre in annual operating, which you know, can be two to $3,000,000 a year.
[10:41] Yeah, for a, for a 50 to $60,000 net return at the end, right.
[10:46] With high risk, yeah.
[10:48] It really doesn't make economic sense.
[10:51] And I think now we're starting to see that tide turn where you're more farmers are looking for a way to farm without as many inputs, as much debt, and they're going back to those organic practices.
[11:02] You know, to some, to some extent, we can talk more about that.
[11:05] But tell me a little bit about what Cow Creek Organics looks like today.
[11:09] What's the footprint and operation of the farm and what role do you play?
[11:14] The farm is really developed over time.
[11:16] You know, grandpa died and mom and dad were able to step up and they farm 400 acres with cattle that, you know, that same Home Farm is still managed organically, just the way it was when mom and dad had it right.
[11:32] And it was my brother and I were farming it together.
[11:35] I got an opportunity to work with the Rodale Institute as a markets consultant and work on the organic industry as a whole.
[11:44] So I step back.
[11:46] I'm farming 160 acres.
[11:49] So between, I guess the whole farm, it's a little convoluted, but there's, there's 800 acres total.
[11:58] And we have mom and dad, they still own the cattle and they run cows on the Home Farm.
[12:04] And then on some of the other fields.
[12:06] We work with a neighbor, good friend of ours who he runs cattle and sheep on some of the land.
[12:13] And then my brother manages all of the row crops except for the one farm that I'm in charge of.
[12:24] And then I'm working with the Rodale Institute on a, on a much broader organic plan where the goal right now is to expand the US organic acreage by 10 million acres in the next 5 years.
[12:44] So the opportunity with Rodale kind of forced your family into this conversation of how do we maintain our Home Farm while also enabling you to work off the farm a little bit more to support this larger industry goal, Correct.
[12:57] Yeah, Well, that's a huge goal.
[12:59] I mean, 10 million acres in the next 5 years.
[13:03] So let's maybe pivot to talking about Rodale Institute and you know what are the main challenges to transitioning acres to organic?
[13:13] And what's, you know, what's the need for setting a goal like that?
[13:16] What gaps are you guys trying to fill?
[13:18] Yeah.
[13:18] Can I give a little bit of background on Rodale Quick?
[13:21] Yeah, please do.
[13:22] So the Rodale Institute is it's a nonprofit started in Pennsylvania.
[13:27] It's been promoter of organic farming for food and for soil since the 50s.
[13:36] So it has been around a long time.
[13:38] They have the a research trial research farm in Pennsylvania where they have the longest running organic first conventional farming systems trial and out of that spun some a consulting arm to work with farmers to help them transition into organic.
[13:57] And I'm on that consulting team working mostly in market development where I connect farmers with markets and there are some challenges when it comes to transitioning land into organic.
[14:13] There's a 36 month period where you're using organic practices but not selling at an organic premium and that can be that can be challenging though there are opportunities now for grants and for federal funds to help alleviate some of that financial burden.
[14:36] Overall though, it can be a great way for farmers to find a way to move into a profitable market, to move away from, you know, the reliance on chemicals and high cost inputs and to be, you know, much more sustainable with within their own operation.
[15:02] Yeah.
[15:02] And I guess could you, could you expand upon that three-year transition period like you're not selling at the organic premium yet.
[15:10] Presumably you're reducing your input cost.
[15:12] But what's happening during those three years to your farm that leads to maybe a dip in yields or a dip in profitability?
[15:22] Like what's what's going on with the soil and the environment on the farm during those three years?
[15:28] Yeah, that transition process out of conventional and into organic.
[15:34] There's, there's a lot of changes going on.
[15:36] So we, you know, we remove the synthetic fertilizers and chemicals out of the system and then replace that with slower releasing manures or, you know, maybe like feather meal, some other fertility, but that isn't as soluble and isn't as fast acting.
[15:55] It's shifting from a very readily available system and immediate return.
[16:01] Well, like if you spray a herbicide, the weed dies and moving it into a system that's a much slower churn.
[16:10] And then something that's done today is going to have an effect later on down the road.
[16:17] And so that shift can take some time and it can be a little bit challenging.
[16:21] And it's with the soil and it's with the plants and it's with the wildlife and it's with the farmer.
[16:27] Everything's making that shift.
[16:31] So if some, if the farmer isn't isn't ready, sometimes the weeds can get away from them, sometimes the fertility can get away from them.
[16:40] Sometimes there's not the right tool or implement because they're just getting started and they haven't purchased all the different things.
[16:51] There's a lot of changes that make that challenging.
[16:54] Yeah, it kind of reminds me of like you're almost weaning the land off of these synthetic solutions that were more of that quick hit, quick fix.
[17:04] But maybe we're more of a Band-Aid to the problems than a holistic solution.
[17:09] And it takes longer to build the to fix the problem at the root effectively than to just put a Band-Aid on it.
[17:19] But going through that takes some time, like you need that transition period.
[17:23] So the ability to use grants or financing to kind of cover some of those maybe tight cash years is really important for farmers to get over that hump because then once what happens after they're certified organic, like what is the market opportunity for them?
[17:39] Can you speak a little bit about that?
[17:40] Yeah, I mean, once they're once they're certified organic, typically we see yields come back up very comparable to where they were conventionally.
[17:51] And we see market opportunity where typically you can get double per bushel price compared to conventional as a general rule.
[18:03] So that's, I mean that's pretty significant profitability improvement because now you're reducing inputs in many ways and you're doubling your maybe doubling your output or you're doubling your revenue, you're reduce, you're reducing your inputs, you're doubling your revenue, but you're increasing your management.
[18:24] That isn't always a good fit for every farmer, but more and more I see lots of younger farmers making the switch.
[18:36] Yeah.
[18:37] Like, and when you say more management, it's more there's more complexity probably, and there's more crop rotations, more diversity to what you're doing.
[18:46] And then also maybe more actual physical labor.
[18:50] There's more physical labor.
[18:51] There's more time in the tractor seat, there's more paperwork.
[18:55] You have to, you know, organic is a certification of practice.
[19:00] And so they every year when you have your annual inspection, they want to see when you're in the fields, what seed you're planting, where they got sold, if there is any manure applied, where it came from.
[19:12] Everything is tracked very tight.
[19:14] So there's a lot more management that goes into it.
[19:17] And then you're you're working in an ecological system, you don't have the quick fixes and you need to be more thoughtful about how you plan things out.
[19:26] Yeah.
[19:27] And that's something that you're very familiar with, like having to think through those challenges on your farm and then working with other farmers to address those issues as they come up and really be adaptive in your management, I would imagine.
[19:40] And I like how the model that you've been using on your Home Farm where your family is not necessarily doing all of the work.
[19:48] You're partnering with a neighboring farmer and you're adding some things to his farm by planting annual crops potentially.
[19:55] And he's adding something to your farm by rotating his cows through like there's a symbiosis there with that partnership, right?
[20:01] Is there anything else like you would say about that's been really instructive for you?
[20:06] I really think these cooperative or partnership models make a lot of sense where?
[20:13] You know, it say Dallas wants to specialize in row crops.
[20:18] He can be really directed in managing the row crops on a pretty wide swath of acreage, but he doesn't have to also manage the cows and also manage the chickens and put up all the hay like he can do.
[20:34] He can specialize and do what he does really well and then let someone else specialize and do what they do really well.
[20:40] But we're going to share acreage as the land kind of rotates through the system, so everyone benefits from the other without having to do all the work.
[20:52] Yeah, it's a really a very cool model.
[20:54] I mean, I feel like that's a pretty unique model.
[20:56] Do you see other farmers using that very often?
[20:59] I don't see it as often as I think it could be.
[21:03] Yeah, I think, I mean, it requires a lot of trust, right?
[21:06] And that partnership, like you're farming their land.
[21:09] Some years they're farming your land.
[21:10] Others, like even in the same year, you might be taking a crop off of the same land.
[21:14] So you really have to have alignment in your mission and values around land stewardship, I would imagine.
[21:21] Trust in a lot of communication.
[21:22] Yeah.
[21:23] Yeah.
[21:24] It's really incredible.
[21:25] I mean, I think it's a great model for others to consider applying because your point of asking farmers to do 10 more things than they already do is a tall order.
[21:35] Like we just, you know, it's specialization happens for a reason.
[21:39] So this is a way to still specialize, but in a cooperative way.
[21:42] So your land gets what it needs, which I think is really crazy.
[21:45] Well, and I don't think it's I don't think it's fair.
[21:47] I don't think it's feasible to ask farmers to do everything.
[21:53] Yeah, I agree.
[21:55] Can you?
[21:56] So recently the new certification, Regenerative Organic Certified has been kind of bubbling up more.
[22:03] I'm seeing that label on more food at the grocery store and I know it's something that Rodale is championing.
[22:08] Can you talk a little bit about what the word regenerative adds to the conversation that is not being captured by organic alone?
[22:16] And why do we why do we need a new certification?
[22:20] The Regenerative Organic certification came out of some of the really adopters and champions of certified organic and they were unhappy with some of the rulings that the National Organic Program made the N OP around certain things like treatment of livestock, animal spacing within barns, crop rotations and cover crop requirements.
[22:51] But I think the biggest straw was hydroponics.
[22:54] When the N OP ruled that hydroponics were allowed to be certified organic, that was, that was a big one.
[23:02] So I, I really think to me, the regenerative organic certification missed an opportunity to raise all organic up to that standard and they kind of broke off and started their own certificate in their own program above and beyond what organic is currently.
[23:28] And So what would be required to become regenerative organic certified?
[23:33] Like what would that process look like?
[23:34] It's a multi tier system.
[23:36] It starts with being certified organic and then there's a bronze, silver and gold.
[23:41] I don't know.
[23:42] And I think it was built with the intentionality of always improving.
[23:48] So I don't know of anyone who meets the gold standard currently.
[23:52] There could be some, but I it's a pretty high bar to hit.
[23:56] Bronze is where most people get in, but you can only be within bronze for a certain amount of time.
[24:03] And it's on a pillar system too.
[24:06] So it has rules and requirements for soil and crop health with, you know, crop rotation and cover crops and tillage in mind.
[24:17] There's livestock integration requirements and pasture management.
[24:22] And then it looks at the human function of agriculture and make sure that the people working in AG have a livable wage and have appropriate housing and access to healthcare, things like that.
[24:37] So there's, it's a pretty intense certification.
[24:43] Yeah.
[24:43] And it really goes beyond just how is the crop produced from a practice standpoint to like the holistic, the, you know, human and social component of it and integrating, you know, like integrating livestock, all these different things that technically organic is probably was envisioned to include when they created the USDA organic standard.
[25:07] But that definition maybe was narrowed.
[25:10] And this is kind of bringing more of those pieces back into the sort of a new certification.
[25:16] So something like hydroponics, you know, for example, wouldn't ever meet that regenerative organic certified because it doesn't involve soil.
[25:26] Correct.
[25:26] Exactly.
[25:28] OK.
[25:29] So I guess one of the things that is interesting for me as mostly a consumer of goods versus a person who raises these crops myself is that when I go to the grocery store, there are all these different labels, you know, with, for eggs and for chicken and for fruit and all the, there's a lot of complexity and labeling and the average consumer is lost as to what they should be looking for.
[25:58] And so when I think about this is, you know, something that I've spent a lot of time trying to understand and LED me down this path on learning about farming and how food is raised, where it comes from.
[26:08] But for a consumer, like what would you advise if you're a consumer looking to buy the most environmentally friendly and, you know, healthy for your families?
[26:19] Like what are the things they should be looking for in the grocery store?
[26:23] Or maybe where should they be looking to get their food?
[26:26] Not maybe not.
[26:27] That's a that's a big questionnaire.
[26:30] That's a really big question, I think.
[26:34] And not everyone has access to all of this.
[26:38] You know, we're really fortunate here in Illinois that if you know where I am in central Illinois, I have access to one to two CSA options.
[26:54] There's a local Co-op grocery store and then I have the, you know, like Myers and Costco and some other big stores you up in the city, you'd have access to probably any and all kinds of food that you could potentially imagine.
[27:13] But then there's lots of people in, you know, other rural areas of the country who they're the closest fresh grocery store outside of growing it themselves as a Dollar General fresh.
[27:31] So I think if you can find a farmer and get to know that farmer and support your local farmer.
[27:40] If that is not an option through a CSA or farm stand, then certified organic and regenerative organic are two viable options.
[27:54] If they meet your price range that do have some teeth and they're one of the few certifications that is inspected annually.
[28:06] Outside of that, just buy fresh stuff.
[28:10] I don't know.
[28:12] Yeah.
[28:12] I mean, try to buy Whole Foods and things that you can pronounce all the ingredients, right.
[28:19] Yeah.
[28:20] I think it's a good point that the best food maybe for health is not available one in every season in every location.
[28:31] And, you know, there may be places that really are food insecure.
[28:35] Even in the city, there are neighborhoods that are lacking access to fresh food because there aren't good grocery stores in those areas.
[28:44] So I think like accessing healthy food is a real challenge.
[28:49] And I think something that I learned in my search for good farmers, good food was that some farms also follow organic practices, but they don't necessarily go forward with the certification.
[29:01] And so it's really just, I think learning more about it, doing your own research, visiting the farm.
[29:08] I think it's to your point earlier about asking farmers to do everything.
[29:13] One of the challenges is that farmers that are doing all these really great practices and are trying to survive, like then we're also asking them to be marketers and get to know every consumer.
[29:25] And that's just not realistic.
[29:26] So I think kind of do your own research.
[29:29] A lot of them have websites, a lot of them have communications out there about what they're doing and those resources are there if you go and look for them.
[29:36] So you, I think we have to, as consumers have to participate a little bit more and decide that we care and be willing to do a little bit of the research rather than asking the farmers to always like come to us, if that makes sense.
[29:51] So I would, you know, I'm curious to hear your perspective on the demand for organic and regenerative organic certified from the consumer side.
[30:00] It does seem like the demand, the market share for organic has been increasing over recent years.
[30:05] And now we're seeing more regenerative organic certified brands which be shortened to say rock.
[30:11] Is that the industry standard now?
[30:14] So what's why is that?
[30:17] What do you think is driving that increase in market demand?
[30:21] So I'm going to step back.
[30:22] Like most of my work is in organic grains.
[30:25] So organic grains go into certain like you know, you got tofu, you got soy milk and in organic grains.
[30:36] We got 3 crops primarily 4 if you include oats, corn, soybeans, wheat and oats, all of the organic oats, most of the organic oats go into oatmeal or some kind of oat flour.
[30:52] So that all goes into human consumption in the US or you're saying from your farm in the US, OK, US and Canada, most of the corn grown outside of tortillas.
[31:04] So tortillas, tortilla chips, corn flour, cornmeal.
[31:09] A small fraction of the organic corn is grown for food.
[31:12] Most of the corn is grown for dairy food or dairy feed and poultry feed.
[31:22] Same thing with soybeans.
[31:24] Most of the soybeans are grown for dairy and poultry feed, and same thing with wheat.
[31:30] All the wheat grown in the Midwest is a variety of wheat that's good for making a Thai starch.
[31:36] It's high yield, it's good for making cake flours, it's not good for making pasta flours.
[31:42] And there's just not a whole lot of organic Twinkies made.
[31:48] So the demand for organic, the wheat we grow here in the Midwest, soft red wheat, the primary demand of that is for feed.
[31:59] So when I think about a systems and I and I look at, you know, the crops we grow, where they grow, it's all going into milk, eggs and chicken organic.
[32:12] There's been a really strong move through the consumer demand for organic milk, organic eggs, organic cheese, organic chicken and it's easy for those industries to make the transition.
[32:28] It's not a 36 month transition for an organic poultry house.
[32:34] They can do a deep clean out and then bring in organic chicks and then start an organic operation.
[32:42] So it's the barrier to entry for birds is very low.
[32:47] So that as the demand has increased in the grocery stores, conventional barns have transitioned to organic poultry barns very quickly, which is been a huge driver in demand of growing the organic acreage for the feed supply.
[33:08] But that's a 36 month transition program.
[33:11] So there's a big lag right now.
[33:14] We have a huge demand and not near enough supply.
[33:17] Same thing with the dairy industry.
[33:21] There's been a big drive in organic milk and organic cheese, organic coffee creamers.
[33:27] I think it's only a year.
[33:29] It might only be nine months to make that transition for a dairy farm.
[33:34] So again, it's not as fast as chickens, but it's significantly faster than the farms.
[33:41] So there's been a huge demand in the grocery store and I think the reason it's been a big demand in the grocery store is because the price gap has come down.
[33:52] You know, if we look a couple years ago with the bird flu, organic eggs at one time on the Costco shelf were cheaper than the conventional eggs because so many birds had died.
[34:06] So I think that the price gap has narrowed.
[34:09] I think consumers are more aware and if it's not double on the grocery store, if it's within a reasonable margin, I think a lot of consumers when they can will buy organic.
[34:25] Yeah, I totally agree.
[34:27] I think the price, you know, the elevated price for organic is definitely a gatekeeper for certain families that can't afford it, right?
[34:37] Many families cannot afford organic.
[34:38] So as that price gap gets smaller, it becomes more accessible.
[34:46] But I also wonder about does that change the economics for the producer, You know, if they are selling it less of a premium, does that hurt the organic producer to some degree?
[34:58] You know, the benefit of getting to more the cost of production is so low compared to processing and packaging and distribution.
[35:07] The organic poultry and organic milk can be within a reasonable margin of conventional because the cost of the inputs and the cost of production is so low.
[35:19] Yeah, it's really the processing where things get expensive.
[35:23] It's the processing, the packaging and the distribution.
[35:26] And that's been, we've been which are the doing a lot better at that.
[35:29] Yeah, right.
[35:30] Those are the same cost if you're organic or conventional probably it's more about the supply chain relationships and having the facilities, right.
[35:39] Like then the cost itself I guess.
[35:43] And those have all been, you know, we're seeing organic options and all major retail source.
[35:52] Yeah, I would say that is a big shift.
[35:54] Like something I've been tracking to is that they're just it's much more available and I think it's it's definitely I did a little informal survey of kind of my network.
[36:06] What do they look for when they're buying food for their families, their kids?
[36:10] What are the top labels that they're looking for?
[36:13] Most of them don't understand or like really know in detail what regenerative means.
[36:18] But they all know what organic means.
[36:20] And they all know that is if they don't have a lot of time to figure it out, that is sort of like an easy button.
[36:27] Like if it's not that much more expensive, they'll just buy the organic 'cause they know that's or their instinct is that's better for their kids.
[36:35] And so the consumer awareness is a huge piece of probably the growth of the market share as well as the price compression.
[36:44] How do you think about that?
[36:46] You and I are both kind of in this phase of raising young kids, I guess talk.
[36:52] Can you talk a little bit about your family and what you think about like the type of food you want them to eat and how you connect that to their health?
[36:59] Yeah, I mean, raising kids is hard, right?
[37:02] Like, there's no easy button for it.
[37:06] Notoriously difficult.
[37:07] And, you know, as we talked about specialization when I was growing up, we did it all right.
[37:13] We had a big garden.
[37:14] My mom would can, she stayed at home, so she would freeze and can all the extra.
[37:19] We raised all of our own meat.
[37:21] We had all of our own grains.
[37:23] We would grind our own flour for a hot minute.
[37:26] Dad thought it'd be fun to have a dairy cow.
[37:28] So we did that.
[37:29] Like, that was nuts.
[37:30] Yeah.
[37:32] Maybe not sustainable to do it all, maybe not sustainable to do it all.
[37:36] And so I am working with our local CSA, you know, every Thursday my wife goes and picks up a box of fresh vegetables.
[37:46] And I do my best to four or five nights a week, sometimes 6.
[37:51] You know, I'm, I'm making a fresh meal at home.
[37:55] We all sit down with the family and I do try to buy organic when I can.
[37:59] I can't get everything organic and not everything that I can get organic I think is worth it.
[38:05] You know, I would like to budget an hour to two every night to cook in so that I can make a meal from scratch.
[38:14] I'm not getting a whole lot of stuff out of cans.
[38:17] I'm not getting a whole lot of stuff out of the freezer.
[38:20] But I'm not eliminating it.
[38:22] Right.
[38:22] Like, there's nights I get home and it's 8:00 and we just throw on a Jack's frozen pizza because they got to be in bed and 1/2 an hour.
[38:30] And that's what we got.
[38:32] Totally.
[38:32] Yeah.
[38:33] It's about balance.
[38:35] Recently, you and I started talking a little bit about food in schools and how there's a very big disconnection even in a rural community like yours where food, you're literally in the center of America's bread basket and lots of agriculture all around the school and the school is sourcing, you know what we would probably consider to be pretty low quality food for your kids?
[38:59] And that's what they're eating for breakfast.
[39:01] They're eating it for lunch.
[39:02] So what do you where do you see opportunity to use schools as like a new, a new like a sort of window or door to getting healthier food for kids and maybe making more connections with local farmers?
[39:16] Yeah, I guess the school food programs, they do check the calorie and protein boxes, but it's just a bunch of sugar or refined starch.
[39:32] It's yeah, very high sugar content, I guess I'll say.
[39:37] And that makes sense to some degree because kids have gotten a lot pickier.
[39:40] And so schools want to give kids stuff that they'll eat like they want them to be full.
[39:46] So they're.
[39:46] But the problem with that is more of a Band-Aid solution.
[39:51] Again, giving kids sugar is not going to lead to the best outcomes probably.
[39:55] And I don't even know if it's, it is absolutely that like there are calorie requirements and protein requirements that have to be met for every meal for every kid.
[40:05] And yes, I think they're somewhat pickier, but I don't, I think it comes down to packaging and distribution and the consolidation.
[40:16] You know, when I was in school there was.
[40:21] K through 3rd grade and one school we had 4th and 5th and another school, you know, 6th and 8th and then high school.
[40:29] And we weren't trying to get.
[40:31] And now it's consolidated.
[40:33] It's K through 5 and they've got to get 6 grades of kids.
[40:39] So 600 kids through the cafeteria in about 2 1/2 hours.
[40:47] And so they got to have easy ready to heat or open up a package so that they can get all the kids, all their requirements in 2 1/2 hours.
[40:59] Yeah.
[41:00] Staffing has gotten expensive so that, you know, the schools are on a budget.
[41:04] So they're looking at meals that can be cooked quickly with minimal staff.
[41:10] Yeah.
[41:11] Well, and I think also like having people working in schools that know how to prepare foods.
[41:17] So like, even if you gave them a box of zucchinis, like could they turn that into something that kids would eat that like knowledge around cooking and preparation is probably also declined, I would think in recent years.
[41:31] And so that contributes to the ease, like finding people that know how to create food that the kids can eat quickly.
[41:38] We're not going to fix it overnight.
[41:40] We're not going to fix it in a decade.
[41:42] But I think if we can start offering after school beef sticks made with local organic beef that we can do, we might be able to replace the Fruity Pebbles in the morning with an organic bagel.
[42:01] Like there's little changes that we can make that would still fit the model that the schools are constrained to.
[42:11] But by serving slightly better food.
[42:14] Yeah, absolutely.
[42:15] There's room for improvement.
[42:16] What in, you know, development or trend that you're seeing in food or agriculture right now gives you the most hope for the next, let's say, two to five years or five to 10 if that's too short.
[42:28] I do see a big a big interest in farmers interested in organic or curious about organic.
[42:37] And if we look at a landscape scale, removing those chemicals out of our air, out of our waterways, I don't think people understand how much chemical is sprayed across the landscape.
[42:53] And, you know, we're all breathing it in every day.
[42:57] So it is affecting us directly, you know, from a bunch of different angles.
[43:01] There's many movements that are looking at limiting or decreasing the amount of chemical applied in the landscape.
[43:11] Yeah, I think that even, I think you and I talk about how we're not, we're not that we're not leaders in technology, but some of the newer technologies that are using precision application of pesticides and herbicides are definitely good news.
[43:28] If there could be limited application of those chemicals, that would be a net benefit for us.
[43:34] You know, if we're not, we're probably will never get to a point where every farm is organic.
[43:39] But if we were able to at least reduce that chemical load, that would improve our water quality, that would improve our air quality.
[43:46] So I think it is there are some promising sort of innovations on that front as well.
[43:51] Yeah, I just got back from the mechanical weed control field day and they were going through that with the AI technology and the camera systems available right now.
[44:03] It is a amazing how specific these sprayers and cultivators can be.
[44:09] Like there was 1 cultivator that had a camera and it went around tomato plants just, you know, being really precise about removing weeds.
[44:19] And then they had a hooded sprayer that had cameras and it was spraying, you know, exactly on the weeds and it's it was skipping the lettuce.
[44:28] So I think as we move into more technology like that, just little by little, it's going to be an improvement.
[44:35] But again, the demand for that technology is driven by the realization that, one, these chemicals are not good for us, we need to limit them.
[44:43] And two, those are expensive inputs for a farmer.
[44:46] So if the farmer can spray less chemical, they have to buy less chemical and that should make their farm more sustainable.
[44:53] Hopefully over time that leads to improvements in soil health and overall farm health.
[44:58] But you know, like you said, it's not going to happen overnight.
[45:03] Can we, I guess maybe pivot to talk a little bit about just thinking about farm durability?
[45:10] Your family farm has endured for multiple generations and it hasn't been simple.
[45:16] I'm sure there's a lot of complexity.
[45:19] You and your wife are both working off the farm as well as managing the farm with within a larger family group.
[45:26] I'm curious if you can we can talk to you a little bit about farm succession and ownership and why.
[45:32] Like why does the change in generation or the shift to the next generation often lead to challenges and people losing control of the farm or losing the land?
[45:45] And how is your maybe speak to that first, then we can talk about how your family sort of circumnavigated that successfully?
[45:52] Farm succession is something I have very strong opinions about.
[45:56] And I often see in whether it's financial stress or just an absolute love for the job.
[46:05] I see a lot of times where the older generation puts a lot of pressure on the younger generation to support them where they still want to make decisions, they still want to have total control and are not willing to step away and remove themselves or even move into an advisor role.
[46:27] They want to tell the younger generation what to do and the younger generation they one need to have their own financial stability so that they can operate within the system.
[46:41] And who in their right mind would walk into $2,000,000 a year of debt to come home with a $40,000 salary when you could just walk into any low paying job and get $15.00 an hour and match that?
[46:58] And you can't be stupid to be a farmer.
[47:01] Like it's a high management job.
[47:04] So all the people that are moving into farming operations have the skill set to be high level managers.
[47:11] So there has to be a way that the incoming generation can match a comparable salary to what they could get in a comparable level job and have the autonomy to make their own decisions for the operation.
[47:30] And no one can come in unless someone gets out and there's people not leaving, which makes it difficult.
[47:37] Well, to that point, I guess like the senior generation in your mind, like they should have been saving so they could retire effectively, or maybe they could, you know, and it's not it's not their fault, right?
[47:53] It they were barely breaking even to get by and now they're ready to retire and then there's just not enough for them, let alone for the next generation.
[48:06] Well, and I think that the big challenge here, and this is something I spend so much of my time thinking about is the land, right?
[48:12] Because the family the previous generation owns their most valuable asset is the land.
[48:19] So they typically have been cash poor and land rich.
[48:22] And so then if they want to retire, they look to sell the land to somebody else or they want to sell it to their kids.
[48:32] And their kids like the land has appreciated so much that the kids usually can't cash flow that land purchase or even a mortgage with farm income.
[48:42] And so like, what are the solutions for a generation, you know, senior generation to retire, transition that land to the next generation without, you know, how do you make that financially viable?
[48:55] The way it's currently working in our farm is mom and dad.
[48:58] They still own most of the land and then Dallas is renting from them.
[49:04] So they have some steady annual income coming in from the land.
[49:09] It's at a point where Dallas can be profitable on it.
[49:12] And mom and dad are still running cows, so they own their own cow operation.
[49:17] So dad's workload got cut drastically, but his income got cut some, but not drastically.
[49:28] And then Dallas was able to come in and he's farming and he's got an operation that works for him, that works in conjunction with mom and dad still owning the land and them owning the cows.
[49:44] Yeah.
[49:44] And I mean, it's even hearing that explanation.
[49:47] It is really complex.
[49:48] It's probably going to be different for every family.
[49:51] But it is a challenge in carrying on the family farm and helping the last generation like have a place on the farm or in the family business without while still giving autonomy to the next generation to chart their own path.
[50:07] So it's and working with family like it's complicated, it can be challenging.
[50:12] Which brings me to my next question, which is talking about the distillery.
[50:17] Can you speak a little bit about why you and your siblings founded the distillery?
[50:22] What was the thinking behind or the reason behind creating that new business?
[50:27] We wanted to add value to the crops that we are growing and when we looked at that they worked better in distilled spirits.
[50:38] So we make bourbon, wheat whiskey, rye whiskey, vodka, a few other things and it's a it's adding value to the grain that we're growing from the farm.
[50:55] The waste product out of the distillery is can be fed to the cattle or hogs.
[51:01] So and then, you know, the waste of the cattle and hogs can feed the grain that comes back into the distillery.
[51:07] So we've got a nice cyclical operation here.
[51:11] And then, you know, if we think about, you know, so that's one way to stack enterprises vertically.
[51:18] But if we look horizontally, we could get land and just, you know, really lock down and expand the grain operation.
[51:27] But then as we think about generations coming in, you know, I have two kids, my brother has two kids.
[51:34] If they want to be grain farmers, they have an option.
[51:37] If they want to be livestock farmers, they have an option.
[51:40] If they want to be distillers, they have an option.
[51:42] If they want to be marketers or in sales or in technology, there's a fit for the next generation to find their passion in what we're already doing.
[51:57] Yeah, You've created a family enterprise that offers a lot of variety of potential paths for them if they if they want to stay on the farm and stay in the agriculture food business, like there's a lot of options for them to do that, which I think is part of the reason why on conventional farms where they grow corn and soy every single year.
[52:20] And maybe to your point about farmers from the last generation not retiring, kids aren't necessarily coming back to those farms as often because they don't see a place for themselves there.
[52:30] Would you agree That's a little bit part of it?
[52:33] Yeah, I do.
[52:35] I there's they don't feel welcome or they don't feel like they have a place.
[52:39] Yeah.
[52:39] Or it's, you know, if they're just planting those one or two crops and you're, you know, using a lot of mechanical, a lot of chemical, there isn't like we talked about at the beginning of.
[52:48] So there's not as much complexity to the management.
[52:50] So somebody, one person can farm thousands of acres, whereas your operation you have you're you're creating jobs for, I don't know, 5 to 10 people in this enterprise.
[53:03] Yeah.
[53:04] Or more.
[53:04] Yeah.
[53:05] Yeah.
[53:05] Like in within this there, if someone wanted to open up a restaurant, it would it could work at the distillery and utilize what we're growing on the farm.
[53:15] Yeah.
[53:15] Do you think that all farmers need to own more of the value chain to remain economically viable, or is that an unrealistic expectation for most farms?
[53:24] I think that'd be an unrealist, unrealistic expectation for most farmers.
[53:29] So what you're doing is maybe sort of like unique and not replicable or.
[53:36] Oh, I mean, I definitely think it's replicable.
[53:38] I just don't think it has to be replicable every time.
[53:44] Yeah.
[53:44] And I think, you know, we're very fortunate.
[53:49] I recognize my privilege.
[53:51] Not everyone has the opportunity to do what we've done.
[53:55] And I like to, you know, use this platform as a way to help showcase other farms.
[54:02] So we do that when we're open, we bring in food trucks and local chefs to serve meals.
[54:10] And we're always utilizing some kind of local farmers produce outside what we're already growing.
[54:17] Yeah.
[54:18] I mean, I think what you guys have done is really special and unique, but not every farm has to replicate exactly what you're doing.
[54:24] They may add value through other, you know, consumer products or other maybe ecotourism.
[54:30] Like there's other things that could be stacked on top of what they're doing or even add values, like, you know, there's a bunch of solar panels going up around here and, you know, adding value through like grazing or, you know, some kind of maintenance within those solar arrays.
[54:49] Yeah, for sure.
[54:50] I mean, looking for just diversification kind of what we talked about at the beginning, like how can you diversify your revenue streams just like any business so you're not dependent on the success of 1 product or one crop.
[55:03] So maybe to start to wrap up here a little bit, what do you hope will be better for the next generation because of the work you're doing?
[55:10] I hope I can offer a viewpoint that shows there's, if you're, if you're willing to think about it and put in the management that there are really cool and fun ways to be in production agriculture.
[55:28] Yeah, I think you're giving a great example of how to make farming and agriculture fun.
[55:36] It seems like you guys are always having a good time.
[55:37] And when I visit the distillery, it's very cool to see your whole family is involved and your kids are a part of it too.
[55:44] So it's pretty awesome maybe.
[55:46] OK, so a couple of lightning round questions.
[55:48] What farming belief have you changed your mind about?
[55:51] Tillage?
[55:52] You know, I grew up in a tillage system with an organic and then I went through a big spell of trying to do no till and now I'm back around to doing tillage and implementing cover crops.
[56:07] So I was very against tillage for a while.
[56:09] But through some research that I read, some on farm trials I've done and some my own on farm testing, I am not as against tillage as I used to be.
[56:23] OK, what's something consumers misunderstand about organic farmers?
[56:28] This is just a story I'm telling myself that consumers see organic farmers as, you know, the beautiful Wisconsin dairy barn with a giant vegetable field.
[56:41] And you wake up before dawn and you go out and you milk the cows.
[56:45] And that there are some of them out there, but it's most of them are, you know, more specialized in what they do.
[56:56] If you weren't farming or working in Food and Agriculture, what would you be doing?
[57:00] I'd be a criminal.
[57:01] I'd be like a high stakes criminal.
[57:03] Like stealing a fancy artwork.
[57:05] Yeah.
[57:06] Yeah.
[57:06] Complicated strategies.
[57:09] Absolutely.
[57:10] OK, well, that was not the answer I was expecting, but good to know.
[57:16] Let's keep you busy on the farm.
[57:17] So you don't, you know, revert.
[57:19] Revert to a life of crime.
[57:21] Thank you so much.
[57:22] Well, I, you know, have always really appreciated your hearing, your experience, hearing your story and your perspective and I also appreciate that you're so open minded.
[57:32] You're constantly learning and kind of changing based on what you see and read and it just shows how adaptive you are in your mindset, which I think is really cool.
[57:41] So thank you for joining me and taking the time and thank you everyone for listening to the Nature Stack Podcast.
[57:47] Like subscribe and follow us where you get your podcast to support our mission.
[57:50] It really helps and we'll catch you next time.